2023 NCAA Tournament

[d4_Pace]

After the final during the awards I heard an announcement of what I thought was an All Final Four team.  I believe 4 players from each team were recognized because they were there.  I'm curious about the full team (if it indeed does exist) but can't seem to final any info.  Does anyone know where this list might be?

Yep every year the announce what is technically an All tournament team but it usually consist of just players from the final four that is weighted more heavily towards the team that won, runner up over the semifinalist. Additionally, they announce an offensive and defensive MVP for the tournament. For whatever reason I don't think the list is ever published anywhere.

[irapthor]

I lost my best post of the year in the latest outage so I'll do an abbreviated version.

I'm sure, whether pro or con, we're pretty much done with Amherst talk, but as we tidy things up I have an observation and a question.

I agree with jknezek about Amherst's sustained, remarkable success for at least a decade and a half making sense.  My observation is about what seems like the pattern dynamics on the board...Allowing for significant carryover effect, every year the antipathy towards the Mammoths grows as the season progresses and reaches peak crescendo level over the last two to three weeks until there is close to a unanimous verdict about the program and a desire for Amherst to get knocked out (excluding of course Mammoths Nation and some NESCAC diehards).  Then some of us (like me in some previous years) see a couple of press conferences with Serpone dripping in charisma combined with direct witness observations of gracious, empathic encounters with players on the opposing teams, and especially players on other teams that were in some degree of a recruitment process with him.  And then there's a feeling in the air of maybe we (and I mean a collective we) went a little far and we conclude with a bit of a correction.  Until the next year verifies everything again and rinse/repeat.

The question is about exactly how expansive Serpone's recruiting goes and how many prospects believe they are truly in the mix to get a spot at Amherst (and I'm raising this with no intent for anyone to go into the weeds on 'tips' and such).  Now I assume that Serpone gets most of what he wants (again, aside from any major admissions issues), but he may miss on some.  One of the announcers noted during the W&L game that he has a neighbor who picked W&L over Princeton (no athletics aspect was implied).  In any case, I would guess Serpone receives inquiries well into the hundreds (or more).  How many does he seriously get involved with, pursue, keep the mutual interest going, etc?  100?  50?  25?  And is there a point when he releases the ones under heavy consideration who he does not offer in the end?
Notwithstanding what I just wrote above, his yield has got to be very high.  Nevertheless, I've heard too many opponent parents publicly and/or privately make a point of noting Serpone's positive embrace and interactions with their sons after games to just discount that.  How does the process unfold concluding with his final selection of 6-8 players each year?  And he can't be the only coach in D3 who recruits hard and who would embrace a recruit who went elsewhere, right?  What's his hook or pitch?  How does he convince a kid that the combo of Amherst athletics and academics won't be too much?

Charisma often is confused with and/or masquerades as character....and is incredibly addictive and difficult to resist.

Lastly, anyone have insight they can share about the Nuhu injury?  In live action on video it did not look like much at all and the announcers surmised that he was milking it and/or trying to draw a card on the St Olaf player, but then they would pan over to the trainer seeming to work with him and he never returned.  Some odd substitutions for Amherst in that final game...and of course one that paid off handsomely.  Curious about ten Cate being relegated to a minor role and also Cubeddu who is so dangerous (but the latter did seem like he was a little banged up).

Paul, to answer your last question about the Nuhu injury, we were not sure of the severity of it. It didn't look as serious of a contact to the naked eye as say the Hakeem Morgan injury the previous day, but we watched how it developed and were noting throughout the broadcast he was being treated by the trainers, on the bench, and at the trainer's table. That became a good sign it was more serious than it initially appears. And then the Mammoths suffered some other key injuries, including to Landa (who really toughed it out in the second half... we knew Perez was ready to sub in if he could not continue) and Clark-Eden.

It's hard with injuries because unless you're right there listening to the conversation between player and athletic trainer, you're speculating. From personal experience, I've collided with someone at full speed on the field where they blew out their knee and I walked away unscathed. Then there's been incidents where I've planted a foot wrong and strained a hamstring. So you just never know.

[SierraFD3soccer]

My experience with the Serpone recruiting process and subsequent communication is as follows:

I had an atypical recruiting experience as I was exclusively looking at DI programs and was committed to one for a while. After that commitment fell through for various reasons, I decided to open up my search to the more academic DIII programs and Amherst was naturally one of the programs on that list. I knew nothing about the NESCAC, the DIII soccer hierarchy, or really Amherst other than my dad saying it was a good school. This was relatively late in the recruiting process due to the previous commitment but after reaching out Serpone recruited me really hard. We spoke at least weekly over the late summer/early full leading in to me scheduling an official recruiting visit. I was scheduled to fly across the country on Friday evening for the weekend visit. On Tuesday/Wednesday of that week, he called cancelling the visit saying they had run my academic profile and I wouldn't be able to get in to the school. Now that is certainly possible, I know the process is a bit of a crap shoot but it seemed a little suspicious given I was being recruited at schools of similar standards and never had any issues. What was frustrating was that I only found this out 48 hours in advance, causing my parents to have to lose out on the price of a flight.  Therefore, even before arriving to the NESCAC, I certainly had no love lost for Amherst and always circled the game on the schedule.

While playing Serpone he would constantly talk to me and ask how I was doing, literally during the middle of the game. I'd be taking a throw in in front of the bench and he'd say 'Hey D4pace good to see you, you're playing well this year, Congrats." Given my preconcieved beliefs I always interpreted it as a bit of gamesmanship, but maybe he was just trying to be nice. I never gave him the benefit of the doubt but thats for others to decide for themselves.

While not Amherst, son found out that coaches lie, and, in turn, adults suck. Glad he learned it an 18 year old. He, personally, had at least two visits end like your Amherst situation. One, he had the plane ticket and a day before coach contacted him saying that he was not come. Second visit at another school, hour before he was to drive to the school, son called to ask where to meet, coach told him not to come. May be a slight difference in that he was a keeper and stars have to exactly line up with class years. Neither school could say anything about his academics/scores, but I am sure that is a common lie by coaches when they move on from players who they made commitments too. Like I said, adults suck.

[EnmoreCat]

After the final during the awards I heard an announcement of what I thought was an All Final Four team.  I believe 4 players from each team were recognized because they were there.  I'm curious about the full team (if it indeed does exist) but can't seem to final any info.  Does anyone know where this list might be?

Yep every year the announce what is technically an All tournament team but it usually consist of just players from the final four that is weighted more heavily towards the team that won, runner up over the semifinalist. Additionally, they announce an offensive and defensive MVP for the tournament. For whatever reason I don't think the list is ever published anywhere.

I have a photo which suggests that EnmoreKitten made it.  He won't thank me for mentioning that I am sure.

[Freddyfud]

Congratulations to d4_Pace and paclassic89 for tying for 14th place in the d3challenge.com bracket challenge.  I didn't see any other names I recognized from this board.  I finished 18th, middle of the pack out of 35 entries.  Out of the 35, 2 entries actually selected St. Olaf to win out (they finished top 2 of course.)

Anyhow there is also a link to some photos from each of the final four games (I am NOT affiliated with the site. Photos are available for purchase but you can still look at them.)

https://d3photo.com/

[GKForverr1]

Refs and Cards Part 2

As you can see by my prior post, New England referees in general are very slow to give cards compare to the rest of the country. So why is this the case?  First, several of these conferences are assigned by the same individual (NESCAC and GNAC).  With respect to the NESCAC, the coaches get what they want.  They do not want players suspended for card accumulation, and they do not want referees who give out a lot of cards on their matches.  The coaches are very influential in picking the assignor.  NESCAC games in particular are perceived to be among the best college games in the country, and referees want to be chosen to do those games, so they adjust their behavior accordingly.  A second complicating factor is that within New England, states such as Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine do not have a broad base of highly competitive youth and amateur leagues that are crucial to referee development.  Massachusetts and Connecticut do have this, but these referees are incentivized by #1 above.  Third, while the NCAA can and does issue points of emphasis and provide referee education, the bottom line is that referees are more concerned about pleasing their regular season assignor than an organization that only assigns post-season games.

This is very interesting stuff thanks for compiling and sharing!

A good chunk of the NESCAC must be balancing Amherst out...last two years they've basically lead these categories.

23-24          3rd out of 411                       15.12 fouls per game
                     1st  out of 411                       63 yellow cards

22-23         1st out of 408                     16.33 fouls per game
                   Tied for 3rd out of 408        55 yellow cards

[Kuiper]

Three perspectives on Serpone/Amherst recruiting:

1.  He over-recruits because he is ambitious and loses LOTS of DI-qualified players.  Strings tons of kids along.  Part of that is he is uber organized and always has backup plans where some coaches do not, but it's not because he gets whoever he wants.  If he does calculate his yield (and he probably does), it is a very massaged number, not unlike the yields of many top small liberal arts colleges that ramp up early decision to make their admissions % and yield numbers more attractive.

2.  Amherst is attractive because of the academic/soccer balance, not because of the soccer, and Serpone sells that well.  When you are recruiting kids who are also speaking with DI coaches, the decision to go DIII is because you have decided (or resigned yourself) to prioritizing academics, but want to pair it with an acceptable soccer environment.  For these DI types from top youth programs, "acceptable" means a coach who is really organized, detail-oriented, and likely to provide a DIII soccer experience that feels like DI in practice intensity etc.  Serpone has that in spades.  Other coaches provide the soccer environment without quite as high academics or provide the high academics without conveying the impression that their soccer experience will be quite as good.  The kids know that the style of play is not what they are used to, but they also know that they wouldn't have gotten that style of play in DI either except at a few schools. 

3.  The "bro" culture is a feature not a bug in the Amherst system.  I'm not saying Amherst is a "bro" culture in the nature of the big state school Greek system, but some of the kids I have spoken with really like the rah, rah, high spirit, frat-like bro environment.  What people describe as antics on this board are looked at as fun, competitive, spirited culture.  They would agree it sometimes goes too far into racist, misogynistic behavior, but heckling, taunting, "brothers against the world," physicality, etc sounds like a great release from academic stress to them.  It's a turn off to others and they don't go there, but those who do like it. And those that are only going for the Amherst name go along to get along.

[PaulNewman]

Three perspectives on Serpone/Amherst recruiting:

1.  He over-recruits because he is ambitious and loses LOTS of DI-qualified players.  Strings tons of kids along.  Part of that is he is uber organized and always has backup plans where some coaches do not, but it's not because he gets whoever he wants.  If he does calculate his yield (and he probably does), it is a very massaged number, not unlike the yields of many top small liberal arts colleges that ramp up early decision to make their admissions % and yield numbers more attractive.

2.  Amherst is attractive because of the academic/soccer balance, not because of the soccer, and Serpone sells that well.  When you are recruiting kids who are also speaking with DI coaches, the decision to go DIII is because you have decided (or resigned yourself) to prioritizing academics, but want to pair it with an acceptable soccer environment.  For these DI types from top youth programs, "acceptable" means a coach who is really organized, detail-oriented, and likely to provide a DIII soccer experience that feels like DI in practice intensity etc.  Serpone has that in spades.  Other coaches provide the soccer environment without quite as high academics or provide the high academics without conveying the impression that their soccer experience will be quite as good.  The kids know that the style of play is not what they are used to, but they also know that they wouldn't have gotten that style of play in DI either except at a few schools. 

3.  The "bro" culture is a feature not a bug in the Amherst system.  I'm not saying Amherst is a "bro" culture in the nature of the big state school Greek system, but some of the kids I have spoken with really like the rah, rah, high spirit, frat-like bro environment.  What people describe as antics on this board are looked at as fun, competitive, spirited culture.  They would agree it sometimes goes too far into racist, misogynistic behavior, but heckling, taunting, "brothers against the world," physicality, etc sounds like a great release from academic stress to them.  It's a turn off to others and they don't go there, but those who do like it. And those that are only going for the Amherst name go along to get along.

Excellent.  Totally agree with #3.  In terms of what I put in bold italics in #2, I wonder if you think what he offers is being matched or approximated by some other schools.  My own sense is that some of the other NESCACs (Tufts, Midd, Bowdoin, now Conn, etc) and schools like W&L and similar can and/or do make a similar pitch ("best of both worlds").

[EnmoreCat]

Sitting on a train a little out of Roanoke, hopefully heading for DC, which I think must just about make me the last person vaguely connected with the Final Four tournament, still almost in town.  This has given me a fair bit of time to ruminate...

For those who are relatively new to these boards, the case of United States versus Coach Serpone has been repeatedly tried here and you can go back and review transcripts.  You will see the spectrum of opinions expressed and whilst I get the reasons, I strongly disagree with them, but I'm not writing to rehash that.

I would say it's most unfair to target one specific coach for how they might have interacted with your son or daughter in the recruitment phase.  Certainly, we had several experiences where trails went hot and then cold in separate processes (and have heard multiple stories about the same over the last few days), where we were none the wiser as to why.  I saw correspondence where coaches said I liked my son, but my assistants didn't.  It's a beauty contest at the end of the day and human nature is such that your son might be the number one and then suddenly someone else takes that mantle.  My forecast is that D3 will only become more attractive to D1 capable players and it makes sense.  Hardly any one is going to make a living actually playing, so the chance to focus on study, but still train & play at a good level should be enticing.

Someone asked why players might gloto Amherst, well for me, it's pretty simple, it's a top class program and when you combine that with the academic side, my question would be, why wouldn't you?  I know some people are uncomfortable with the differences between the game and post-game, but I don't even understand why that has to be a thing.  In Australia, we have a term, "White Line Fever" and it refers to the difference once the game is over and being entirely collegiate with and about the opposition team afterwards.  Perhaps it might be an Australian thing, but having known Coach for a while now and chatted to him regularly, I have no doubt that he is 100pct genuine.  I can't truly see why shouting at a ref doesn't mean you also don't respect the opposition.  I shouted at a lot of referee decisions over the last few days and I felt a bit sorry for the AR on the spectator side of the field as he got a lot of advice, but none of that diminished my respect for two fine teams in W&L and St Olaf.  I congratulated several Saints supporters on the way out and meant it. 

For regulars here this will come as no surprise, but there is no way in the world we would change the original decision to commit to Amherst.  It has been life changing in so many ways and Coach and his staff are a super important part of that.  The intent of this is to not change existing opinion here as I understand it's long held, but I appreciate the opportunity to reiterate my position.

[Kuiper]

Three perspectives on Serpone/Amherst recruiting:

1.  He over-recruits because he is ambitious and loses LOTS of DI-qualified players.  Strings tons of kids along.  Part of that is he is uber organized and always has backup plans where some coaches do not, but it's not because he gets whoever he wants.  If he does calculate his yield (and he probably does), it is a very massaged number, not unlike the yields of many top small liberal arts colleges that ramp up early decision to make their admissions % and yield numbers more attractive.

2.  Amherst is attractive because of the academic/soccer balance, not because of the soccer, and Serpone sells that well.  When you are recruiting kids who are also speaking with DI coaches, the decision to go DIII is because you have decided (or resigned yourself) to prioritizing academics, but want to pair it with an acceptable soccer environment.  For these DI types from top youth programs, "acceptable" means a coach who is really organized, detail-oriented, and likely to provide a DIII soccer experience that feels like DI in practice intensity etc.  Serpone has that in spades.  Other coaches provide the soccer environment without quite as high academics or provide the high academics without conveying the impression that their soccer experience will be quite as good.  The kids know that the style of play is not what they are used to, but they also know that they wouldn't have gotten that style of play in DI either except at a few schools. 

3.  The "bro" culture is a feature not a bug in the Amherst system.  I'm not saying Amherst is a "bro" culture in the nature of the big state school Greek system, but some of the kids I have spoken with really like the rah, rah, high spirit, frat-like bro environment.  What people describe as antics on this board are looked at as fun, competitive, spirited culture.  They would agree it sometimes goes too far into racist, misogynistic behavior, but heckling, taunting, "brothers against the world," physicality, etc sounds like a great release from academic stress to them.  It's a turn off to others and they don't go there, but those who do like it. And those that are only going for the Amherst name go along to get along.

Excellent.  Totally agree with #3.  In terms of what I put in bold italics in #2, I wonder if you think what he offers is being matched or approximated by some other schools.  My own sense is that some of the other NESCACs (Tufts, Midd, Bowdoin, now Conn, etc) and schools like W&L and similar can and/or do make a similar pitch ("best of both worlds").

I do think other schools do that as well, although the small liberal arts college prestige is limited enough that there aren't that many can sell the same thing as Amherst.  NESCAC is not an undifferentiated brand outside New England.  For example, I don't think Conn admits the same level of student as Amherst (with due apologies to Conn), but it definitely has a similar level of soccer and it has academic merit $, which Amherst does not.  So, that makes it appealing to the donut hole family, which is a growing segment of the applicant pool.

The real issue for the academic side of the equation is that the applicant pool divides between STEM/computer science and Finance, with student interest in Humanities dropping off a cliff unfortunately.  Nationally, that means some of the top UAA schools like Chicago, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western, and Rochester, as well as a school like Johns Hopkins, have the potential for a better "best of both worlds" story than some of the liberal arts colleges.  The LACs in the NESCAC and elsewhere are working harder to beef up their STEM offerings and claim their strength there too beyond the pure sciences, but a decent number of their athletes are majoring in econ, business-type pre-finance majors.

[PaulNewman]

Kuiper, for the life of me I can't understand why someone would attend a top LAC for finance or "business." 

Your point about Conn is well-taken, but I'll stick with my impression that at least the top half and maybe top two thirds have a national footprint (with the caveat that only a tiny segment of the national populations cares about any of this).  I've said before, I could walk out my door and go the the nearest Dunkin Donuts and probably 8 out of 10 or more would have never heard of Williams or Amherst (and that's in Massachusetts).

[PaulNewman]

EnmoreCat, safe travels and congrats to you and your son on another fantastic season.

Surely you do not believe that Amherst has the market cornered on providing a "life-changing" experience.

[Kuiper]

The last time the final four was held anywhere as far west as Las Vegas was in 1991 at UC San Diego, so if 33 years is too frequent for you than you might as well just bar holding the final four in the far west altogether (and perhaps give up on the idea that DIII can have a real "national" championship).  If your concern is about holding the final four in a city without D3 programs, then the last time that happened was in 2015 in Kansas City, so it's been almost a decade.  There is one school a little over 2 hours (Westminster) and a few others within a 3-4 hour radius, but none in Kansas City, MO itself or anywhere closer.  The closest DIII to Las Vegas is Redlands at 3 hours and 17 minutes (and that's if you aren't pushing the speed limit  ), and La Verne is 3 hours and 23 minutes, so it's not that much different than Kansas City.  If your concern is cost, Las Vegas is probably a cheaper flight and hotels than a lot of locations, especially Roanoke.  It's also easier to get non-stop flights that don't require you to take a long bus ride.  It might even be cheaper to fly all four teams there than many locations where only three teams needed to fly.

It would be more expensive for parents and fans from other parts of the country to get to Vegas than somewhere on the east coast, but Occidental fans traveled to San Antonio and to Amherst(!) in large numbers, St. Olaf fans were in Salem, and Cal Lutheran women's fans even made it to Salem, which is a pretty significant trip.  After all, if EnmoreCat could travel from Australia to Salem, VA, I'm sure he would come next year to Vegas!  My guess is more than a few of these parents and college students have made trips to Las Vegas voluntarily before (purely for educational purposes, of course).

The reality is that DIII schools are part of the college ecosystem that has been the most financially vulnerable and, while schools have been closing everywhere, the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, the traditional base of DIII schools, have had more than their fair share.  The one possible avenue to shore up membership is from NAIA schools in the midwest and far west.  I know some Arizona schools that have been toying with idea of moving to DIII and this is the kind of thing that helps them to demonstrate their commitment to the area.  It's good for DIII's survival to grow in the west and this is probably worth a shot to see how it goes.

I don't have a problem playing it in LA, there are plenty of D3 schools in the area and the SCIAC would be a fine host conference. Similarly there are some locations even in the Northwest Conference I think could host, certainly the weather wouldn't be that much different to Salem so long as you stayed coastal. I have a problem with Vegas. I also didn't much care for Kansas City as a venue. I think D3 should play in D3 supported areas. LA is fine, I think teams out west should catch a break now and then and it's good to waive the flag around the country. I have no problem with championships moving around. Salem, as we both pointed out, has it's own problems. I met some St. Olaf and Cal Lutheran parents in my hotel and had coffee with EnmoreCat. It was great to meet those folks, and I have no problem with the tournament being anywhere there is some support for D3. Las Vegas, and KC, simply aren't it in my opinion.

Fair enough.  I could see some logistical reasons why it would be better at a school like Occidental, Cal Lutheran or Redlands in terms of operational on-the-ground support from a DIII school.  In that sense, holding it at UNLV would be similar to UNC Greensboro I suppose.  I don't know if you would have many more people in the stands if their team was not in the Final Four though.  And I do think that's true in any neutral site school.  I'm assuming there weren't many Roanoke students or locals taking in the games this weekend, although I could be wrong about that.  Maybe we'll get some people at UNLV who were in town for a concrete convention or who are still hungover from a bachelor party!  Not sure how many people will drive in for it if their team doesn't qualify.

One thing about the UNLV field is that the fans are quite close to the touch line.  It's a pretty intimate setting (see this picture from an old new story) unless they've remodeled recently.

https://unlvrebels.com/news/2016/9/13/Full_Day_Of_Soccer_On_Saturday_With_Rebels_Guns_N_Hoses
 

[College Soccer Observer]

Kuiper, for the life of me I can't understand why someone would attend a top LAC for finance or "business." 

Your point about Conn is well-taken, but I'll stick with my impression that at least the top half and maybe top two thirds have a national footprint (with the caveat that only a tiny segment of the national populations cares about any of this).  I've said before, I could walk out my door and go the the nearest Dunkin Donuts and probably 8 out of 10 or more would have never heard of Williams or Amherst (and that's in Massachusetts).

@PaulNewman A significant percentage of the Middlebury team majors in Econ.  There is no finance major per se, but many of the graduates go into finance, with major concentrations of Midd grads in New York, Boston, and increasingly, Chicago.  One of the major selling points of the program is that the alumni network is strong and the former players look out for the current ones and assist with networking opportunities.  https://themessenger.com/business/morgan-stanley-ceo-ted-pick-goldman-sachs-coo-john-waldron-middlebury-college?fbclid=IwAR3bB7nRguoL91hGJ9HT9GNIg0DrX6nN8wZfZpAgq3hIimTsjObrpVFaA-4

While the big guns named in the article were not soccer players, at least to my knowledge, many of the former players have carved out positions in the financial world.  I know that my son secured an internship with an investment bank that turned into an offer of a permanent position.  There are of course many other players who graduate and go into other fields.  A former goalkeeper has a graduate fellowship in oceanographic research, many are premed or prelaw, and several others have taken advantage Middlebury's outstanding language programs. 

[EnmoreCat]

EnmoreCat, safe travels and congrats to you and your son on another fantastic season.

Surely you do not believe that Amherst has the market cornered on providing a "life-changing" experience.

Thanks PN for the kind thoughts and wishes.  Did I say Amherst had cornered the life changing experience market?  It was more to make the point that my son's particular experience has been excellent.  These things sometimes get lost amidst all the "banter".  There are a number of schools where he could have had something similar I am sure.  I don't claim to know enough to say that Kenyon would be one of them however