2023 NCAA Tournament

[Kuiper]

Kuiper, for the life of me I can't understand why someone would attend a top LAC for finance or "business." 

Your point about Conn is well-taken, but I'll stick with my impression that at least the top half and maybe top two thirds have a national footprint (with the caveat that only a tiny segment of the national populations cares about any of this).  I've said before, I could walk out my door and go the the nearest Dunkin Donuts and probably 8 out of 10 or more would have never heard of Williams or Amherst (and that's in Massachusetts).

I agree, but management consulting/investment banking are still among the top destinations for Amherst grads.  Top three employers for Amherst College graduates straight out of school are Bain & Company, EY-Parthenon, and Goldman Sachs.

In LA, I could do the same thing (except not Dunkin Donuts) and most would have never heard of Pomona College or Claremont-McKenna.  With Pomona, they assume you mean Cal Poly Pomona (a local state school).

[PaulNewman]

Kuiper, for the life of me I can't understand why someone would attend a top LAC for finance or "business." 

Your point about Conn is well-taken, but I'll stick with my impression that at least the top half and maybe top two thirds have a national footprint (with the caveat that only a tiny segment of the national populations cares about any of this).  I've said before, I could walk out my door and go the the nearest Dunkin Donuts and probably 8 out of 10 or more would have never heard of Williams or Amherst (and that's in Massachusetts).

@PaulNewman A significant percentage of the Middlebury team majors in Econ.  There is no finance major per se, but many of the graduates go into finance, with major concentrations of Midd grads in New York, Boston, and increasingly, Chicago.  One of the major selling points of the program is that the alumni network is strong and the former players look out for the current ones and assist with networking opportunities.  https://themessenger.com/business/morgan-stanley-ceo-ted-pick-goldman-sachs-coo-john-waldron-middlebury-college?fbclid=IwAR3bB7nRguoL91hGJ9HT9GNIg0DrX6nN8wZfZpAgq3hIimTsjObrpVFaA-4

While the big guns named in the article were not soccer players, at least to my knowledge, many of the former players have carved out positions in the financial world.  I know that my son secured an internship with an investment bank that turned into an offer of a permanent position.  There are of course many other players who graduate and go into other fields.  A former goalkeeper has a graduate fellowship in oceanographic research, many are premed or prelaw, and several others have taken advantage Middlebury's outstanding language programs.

Yeah, I know I'm wrong on this one and will just admit that right up front.  I do think of Economics majors differently than straight finance or business (and maybe because there were a ton of Economics majors at Davidson in my time that that then fed into the Charlotte banking empire).  I'm 100 years behind the times on this one...for me LACs are for philosophy, classics, religion, languages, history, other social sciences, and also biology, chemistry, physics, etc.  I assume though that most if not all of the NESCACs require a certain amount of coursework in "the humanities."  A traditional LAC curriculum also isn't incompatible with real world choices like law or med school.  Three players from my sons class are now MDs (including him).

[PaulNewman]

Kuiper, for the life of me I can't understand why someone would attend a top LAC for finance or "business." 

Your point about Conn is well-taken, but I'll stick with my impression that at least the top half and maybe top two thirds have a national footprint (with the caveat that only a tiny segment of the national populations cares about any of this).  I've said before, I could walk out my door and go the the nearest Dunkin Donuts and probably 8 out of 10 or more would have never heard of Williams or Amherst (and that's in Massachusetts).

I agree, but management consulting/investment banking are still among the top destinations for Amherst grads.  Top three employers for Amherst College graduates straight out of school are Bain & Company, EY-Parthenon, and Goldman Sachs.

In LA, I could do the same thing (except not Dunkin Donuts) and most would have never heard of Pomona College or Claremont-McKenna.  With Pomona, they assume you mean Cal Poly Pomona (a local state school).

Exactly.  Means a lot I'm sure to Goldman Sachs and the like, the alumni base, prospective students, etc but otherwise all of these schools are not nearly as important as we (including me) would like them to be.  When you say Amherst here, most will assume you mean UMass-Amherst down the street.

[PaulNewman]

EnmoreCat, safe travels and congrats to you and your son on another fantastic season.

Surely you do not believe that Amherst has the market cornered on providing a "life-changing" experience.

Thanks PN for the kind thoughts and wishes.  Did I say Amherst had cornered the life changing experience market?  It was more to make the point that my son's particular experience has been excellent.  These things sometimes get lost amidst all the "banter".  There are a number of schools where he could have had something similar I am sure.  I don't claim to know enough to say that Kenyon would be one of them however 

You are correct, you didn't claim that.  It struck me because it was the exact same language your coach used in one of the last two press conferences...and because of the many references to a kind of love that is extraordinarily unique.

I must have posted this at some point, but it turns out that my favorite Amherst grad, and one of my favorite persons I never met, was David Foster Wallace (definitely not a finance guy)....who gave a commencement address at Kenyon that many consider the greatest commencement address ever given (which sounds ridiculous even writing it) but it is true that the address became a famous, very short book by him titled "This is Water."  Check it out.  It's brilliant...and much easier and quicker to read than Infinite Jest.  DFW was a double major in Philosophy and English at Amherst, graduated summa cum laude, and wrote a senior thesis "in philosophy and modal logic that was awarded the Gail Kennedy Memorial Prize and posthumously published as Fate, Time, and Language: An Essay on Free Will (2010)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Water

"This is the only public speech Wallace ever gave outlining his outlook on life. Time magazine has ranked This Is Water among the best commencement speeches ever delivered."

I didn't remember that he beat out Hillary Clinton and astronaut John Glenn in the student selection process for commencement speaker.

[northman]

Three perspectives on Serpone/Amherst recruiting:

1.  He over-recruits because he is ambitious and loses LOTS of DI-qualified players.  Strings tons of kids along.  Part of that is he is uber organized and always has backup plans where some coaches do not, but it's not because he gets whoever he wants.  If he does calculate his yield (and he probably does), it is a very massaged number, not unlike the yields of many top small liberal arts colleges that ramp up early decision to make their admissions % and yield numbers more attractive.

2.  Amherst is attractive because of the academic/soccer balance, not because of the soccer, and Serpone sells that well.  When you are recruiting kids who are also speaking with DI coaches, the decision to go DIII is because you have decided (or resigned yourself) to prioritizing academics, but want to pair it with an acceptable soccer environment.  For these DI types from top youth programs, "acceptable" means a coach who is really organized, detail-oriented, and likely to provide a DIII soccer experience that feels like DI in practice intensity etc.  Serpone has that in spades.  Other coaches provide the soccer environment without quite as high academics or provide the high academics without conveying the impression that their soccer experience will be quite as good.  The kids know that the style of play is not what they are used to, but they also know that they wouldn't have gotten that style of play in DI either except at a few schools. 

3.  The "bro" culture is a feature not a bug in the Amherst system.  I'm not saying Amherst is a "bro" culture in the nature of the big state school Greek system, but some of the kids I have spoken with really like the rah, rah, high spirit, frat-like bro environment.  What people describe as antics on this board are looked at as fun, competitive, spirited culture.  They would agree it sometimes goes too far into racist, misogynistic behavior, but heckling, taunting, "brothers against the world," physicality, etc sounds like a great release from academic stress to them.  It's a turn off to others and they don't go there, but those who do like it. And those that are only going for the Amherst name go along to get along.

Excellent.  Totally agree with #3.  In terms of what I put in bold italics in #2, I wonder if you think what he offers is being matched or approximated by some other schools.  My own sense is that some of the other NESCACs (Tufts, Midd, Bowdoin, now Conn, etc) and schools like W&L and similar can and/or do make a similar pitch ("best of both worlds").

I do think other schools do that as well, although the small liberal arts college prestige is limited enough that there aren't that many can sell the same thing as Amherst.  NESCAC is not an undifferentiated brand outside New England.  For example, I don't think Conn admits the same level of student as Amherst (with due apologies to Conn), but it definitely has a similar level of soccer and it has academic merit $, which Amherst does not.  So, that makes it appealing to the donut hole family, which is a growing segment of the applicant pool.

The real issue for the academic side of the equation is that the applicant pool divides between STEM/computer science and Finance, with student interest in Humanities dropping off a cliff unfortunately.  Nationally, that means some of the top UAA schools like Chicago, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western, and Rochester, as well as a school like Johns Hopkins, have the potential for a better "best of both worlds" story than some of the liberal arts colleges.  The LACs in the NESCAC and elsewhere are working harder to beef up their STEM offerings and claim their strength there too beyond the pure sciences, but a decent number of their athletes are majoring in econ, business-type pre-finance majors.

Again, I think that several things can be true at the same time.  Although the UAA schools are true (or more akin to) universities, that doesn't mean that LACs are lacking in STEM quality.  My son, who went to Bowdoin, was a double major in math and economics...and he now manages a team of quants at a specialized hedge fund that is heavy on analytics.  Some of his team members are alums of NESCAC and UAA schools.

And with respect to Amherst specifically, that school does not have a unique corner on the market for talented student athletes.  Among the NESCACs...Williams, Middlebury, and Bowdoin (among others) are equally represented on Wall Street, in the management consulting world, at med schools, etc.

At the risk of merging several threads, Serpone can indeed be charming and charismatic...and I believe he over-recruits relative to his NESCAC brethren.  But I also agree with the suggestions that there exists a funny "bro culture" at Amherst, and I think it served my son well to have decided on Bowdoin over Amherst from a team and school culture perspective.  This is my admitted bias, but I'm sticking with it...

[Freddyfud]

For me the Amherst hate is no longer interesting if it ever was.  Drilling down on coaches, recruiting, conference status, play style or practically anything else to get to the why will not change this.  They messed up after the Mid game.  They did not repeat that behavior during or after the remaining games, and it makes no difference whether or not they had to be told.  Their play style is cringe to watch--if anything the amount of dead balls and changes of possession inhibits a game flow and means less minutes of actual play.  But evidently we already know this so moving on.

While watching this tournament my interest piqued for the good things I saw.  Culminating in a tweet showing the return home of the champions.  Never heard of St. Olaf much less know anything about them.  Didn't matter.  Following them this weekend on their dream, the humility of their coach, and then seeing the pride as they walked off the bus was interesting.

Ohio Northern's knocking off Lynchburg on their home field and then Messiah on a march to the Sweet 16.  Their opponent, Colorado College, battling through 3 extra times including 2 PKs to get to the Elite 8.  That was interesting.

Washington College holding on against MWU and Conn to get to its first Final Four when no one expected it.  That was interesting.

Players like Morgan, Tuke, and Landa giving it their all while clearly being injured. That was interesting.

The Amherst freshman coming off the bench in the final and scoring a goal he will never forget.  That was interesting.

JHU's last minute effort to get to extra time vs Babson and then almost pulling off an identical feat the next game vs Middlebury.  That was very interesting.

And this is just the action I was able to watch--no doubt missed a bunch of others.  Personally these are the moments I will remember.  Not some hardly post-pubescent young man tugging on his wiener in a moment of poor judgement.

Like others I have a passion for soccer, but this was the first D3 tournament I watched.  Because of moments like these it won't be my last.

[Bucket]

EnmoreCat, safe travels and congrats to you and your son on another fantastic season.

Surely you do not believe that Amherst has the market cornered on providing a "life-changing" experience.

He probably does.

—Tucket Carlson

[OldNed]

The refs in Vermont are the worst I have seen.

FWIW, 75 percent of the refs "in Vermont" you see for NESCAC games come up from Massachusetts.

I'm curious - do those same refs from MA get up to Burlington to ref the UVM games? I've watched a lot of their games recently and I can't say bad reffing as a whole has stood out to me. And I've reffed a bit, so I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to a ref, whether that's right or not

[Another Mom]

For me the Amherst hate is no longer interesting if it ever was.  Drilling down on coaches, recruiting, conference status, play style or practically anything else to get to the why will not change this.  They messed up after the Mid game.  They did not repeat that behavior during or after the remaining games, and it makes no difference whether or not they had to be told.  Their play style is cringe to watch--if anything the amount of dead balls and changes of possession inhibits a game flow and means less minutes of actual play.  But evidently we already know this so moving on.

While watching this tournament my interest piqued for the good things I saw.  Culminating in a tweet showing the return home of the champions.  Never heard of St. Olaf much less know anything about them.  Didn't matter.  Following them this weekend on their dream, the humility of their coach, and then seeing the pride as they walked off the bus was interesting.

Ohio Northern's knocking off Lynchburg on their home field and then Messiah on a march to the Sweet 16.  Their opponent, Colorado College, battling through 3 extra times including 2 PKs to get to the Elite 8.  That was interesting.

Washington College holding on against MWU and Conn to get to its first Final Four when no one expected it.  That was interesting.

Players like Morgan, Tuke, and Landa giving it their all while clearly being injured. That was interesting.

The Amherst freshman coming off the bench in the final and scoring a goal he will never forget.  That was interesting.

JHU's last minute effort to get to extra time vs Babson and then almost pulling off an identical feat the next game vs Middlebury.  That was very interesting.

And this is just the action I was able to watch--no doubt missed a bunch of others.  Personally these are the moments I will remember.  Not some hardly post-pubescent young man tugging on his weiner in a moment of poor judgement.

Like others I have a passion for soccer, but this was the first D3 tournament I watched.  Because of moments like these it won't be my last.

So beautifully said!

[Another Mom]

A little confused.  You said your son would have accepted Amherst notwithstanding things he didn't care for but ultimately chose his #1 anyway....so #1 among actual offers...so Serpone did or did not cut him loose so to speak?

Sorry to be confusing. Things during July/August before my son's senior year were in tremendous flux. Offers came in, coaches went radio silent, it was during covid, some offers had time limits. So schools that had been front runners dropped off, and other schools came to the fore. My son had not been in touch with W&L at all before they saw him August 1 of that year, and within 10 days he passed the preread, visited the school, loved it, and accepted the offer. By that point, it had become his #1 school, although it had not even been on his radar before then. I think this kind of uncertainty/chaos is common as recruiting nears its endpoint.

[PaulNewman]

A little confused.  You said your son would have accepted Amherst notwithstanding things he didn't care for but ultimately chose his #1 anyway....so #1 among actual offers...so Serpone did or did not cut him loose so to speak?

Sorry to be confusing. Things during July/August before my son's senior year were in tremendous flux. Offers came in, coaches went radio silent, it was during covid, some offers had time limits. So schools that had been front runners dropped off, and other schools came to the fore. My son had not been in touch with W&L at all before they saw him August 1 of that year, and within 10 days he passed the preread, visited the school, loved it, and accepted the offer. By that point, it had become his #1 school, although it had not even been on his radar before then. I think this kind of uncertainty/chaos is common as recruiting nears its endpoint.

Right, right...but where was he at with Amherst at that point?

[College Soccer Observer]

The refs in Vermont are the worst I have seen.

FWIW, 75 percent of the refs "in Vermont" you see for NESCAC games come up from Massachusetts.

I'm curious - do those same refs from MA get up to Burlington to ref the UVM games? I've watched a lot of their games recently and I can't say bad reffing as a whole has stood out to me. And I've reffed a bit, so I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to a ref, whether that's right or not

UVM is in the America East Conference, which is assigned by Paul Tamberino through the ECSR.  They will have more of a travel budget and get generally better, younger, and fitter officials than the local d3 leagues, and they also will pay more per game.

[Another Mom]

Right, right...but where was he at with Amherst at that point?
[/quote]

They were still talking and expressing interest, but since other schools were further along (had already made offers) my son didn't want to lose a bird in hand. And it was clear that he wasn't one of Amherst's very top recruits (or he would have been given an offer by then). So, he wasn't as enamored and was more interested in looking elsewhere, which allowed a new school to come in at the last minute and rise to his #1 choice.

[mngopher]

Kuiper, for the life of me I can't understand why someone would attend a top LAC for finance or "business." 

Your point about Conn is well-taken, but I'll stick with my impression that at least the top half and maybe top two thirds have a national footprint (with the caveat that only a tiny segment of the national populations cares about any of this).  I've said before, I could walk out my door and go the the nearest Dunkin Donuts and probably 8 out of 10 or more would have never heard of Williams or Amherst (and that's in Massachusetts).

@PaulNewman A significant percentage of the Middlebury team majors in Econ.  There is no finance major per se, but many of the graduates go into finance, with major concentrations of Midd grads in New York, Boston, and increasingly, Chicago.  One of the major selling points of the program is that the alumni network is strong and the former players look out for the current ones and assist with networking opportunities.  https://themessenger.com/business/morgan-stanley-ceo-ted-pick-goldman-sachs-coo-john-waldron-middlebury-college?fbclid=IwAR3bB7nRguoL91hGJ9HT9GNIg0DrX6nN8wZfZpAgq3hIimTsjObrpVFaA-4

While the big guns named in the article were not soccer players, at least to my knowledge, many of the former players have carved out positions in the financial world.  I know that my son secured an internship with an investment bank that turned into an offer of a permanent position.  There are of course many other players who graduate and go into other fields.  A former goalkeeper has a graduate fellowship in oceanographic research, many are premed or prelaw, and several others have taken advantage Middlebury's outstanding language programs.

Yeah, I know I'm wrong on this one and will just admit that right up front.  I do think of Economics majors differently than straight finance or business (and maybe because there were a ton of Economics majors at Davidson in my time that that then fed into the Charlotte banking empire).  I'm 100 years behind the times on this one...for me LACs are for philosophy, classics, religion, languages, history, other social sciences, and also biology, chemistry, physics, etc.  I assume though that most if not all of the NESCACs require a certain amount of coursework in "the humanities."  A traditional LAC curriculum also isn't incompatible with real world choices like law or med school.  Three players from my sons class are now MDs (including him).

I don't know the statistics off the top of my head, but a pretty significant percentage of liberal arts grads end up in graduate school of some kind. I graduated from St. Olaf about 15 years ago and got a MBA a few years after...and I have the least advanced degree of any of my graduating class who were on the soccer team. A couple MDs and statistics PhDs, architect, and an education PhD. I think that is pretty common for any selective to elite liberal arts college.

[PaulNewman]

mngopher, give us some color on how you, other alums, and St Olaf folks overall are feeling about what the Oles did.  Will this mean something special for the school or not so much?

And...congratulations!  Great run.  I think three games versus Chicago over the past two seasons and at least three to four intense nailbiters with GAC served St Olaf well...and an otherwise very solid schedule too.