NCAA TOURNAMENT 2024

[NEsoccerfan]

Was there any comment about the Messiah player on the ground motionless?  A bunch of folks observed the play live and a bunch of us have watched the video, both from the game and the clip, and the vast majority think it was clearly a foul.  The defender never got close to the ball, and poor touch or not, he knocked the player to the ground (and not with a shoulder to shoulder challenge).  And it is obvious that the play created a major advantage for Williams.  This not a case that needs to be sent to a forensic lab to figure out what happened.

Apologies for sharing! I should have known better than to disturb the echo chamber with a different, albeit qualified opinion.

Send him the full video.

"With the full video I have a foul, charging or tripping.

But this decision assumes the Williams player #21 does not poke the ball with his right foot to his teammate. If he plays the ball, the ball is obviously within playing distance and it becomes a fair challenge. It's not a push, it's not a hold, it's not anything else.

The referee has a significantly better angle and proximity to determine whether the ball was played. From the camera angle we have, it's impossible to tell with certainty."

[NEsoccerfan]

I question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection.  Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.

I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.

The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.

[skg2]

Gonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...

https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx

What about this is biased PN? Just read it through as a neutral fan who was in Williamstown for the game Sunday, and it seems pretty accurate to me. Obviously whoever the student reporter is painted everything in a positive light for the Ephs, but the Falcons definitely didn't dominate the game overall. They had more of the ball, but that's consistent in all of their games, and as we know, it certainly does not directly correlate to having the upper hand in a game.

The only thing I could imagine being biased is stating that two Williams players "combined defensively to dispossess" Messiah. But do we expect the write up to say it was a foul that the ref let go? Williams had the better chances in the game and was the more physically imposing team. Messiah definitely got unlucky with an offside call, but the ref missed a clear pen in the first half as well. Williams was exciting to watch and I can see them making another 2022-esque run this year. Helps that there are no other T-10 teams in their side of the bracket...

[RetiredWarrior]

It seems like money is an issue when folks wanna make money an issue. I thought this year was supposed to be different with NPI carrying a lot of weight (as jknezek has detailed effectively) and the exception being a situation like we have with Wisconsin and Amherst. If Trinity and CMS can go there Vermont, then certainly W&L can go to Williams.

You'd have thought. I certainly thought W&L was headed to Williams and was very surprised when Carlyle popped up on the W&L schedule page.

Then again, W&L's women's team, which I think was the 3 seed overall, is going to Scranton (9) for their second weekend. They are the top NPI in a pod with Scranton, Trinity (22) and William Smith (16). I really can't figure that one out, as William Smith is Hobart, and when W&L's football team went to Hobart for an NCAA game, it was a bus trip. Trinity is a flight either way.

So I'm real confused on why the W&L women aren't at home. Maybe it had something to do with hosting priority and W&L put in to host for both teams and the men had the second weekend, so even though they didn't get it, it forced the women to the road? Don't know how that works.

W&L is hosting the field hockey national championship this weekend in Lexington.

So all of W&Ls teams are on the road ( women's soccer, men's soccer and volleyball) as Lexington will be at full capacity.

[Mr_November]

That article, man... Someone needs an editor. Sheesh.

Favorite ¶ not -

The Williams fans, 300+ in number, had shifted over as a pack to William's attacking half before the start of the second overtime period.  When Kirkman scored the game-winning, walk-off goal, he fell to the ground at the corner flag in celebration and was soon pilled on by fans and teammates alike. It was an incredible moment enjoyed by the entire Williams community, not just the players and coaching staff of Williams Men's Soccer.

Wow. "game-winning, walk-off goal" and just odd that the goal scorer was "pilled" though the video did not show anyone pilled.

I'm guessing that this person never had an editor or the editor was worse??? However, the reporter may be Bob Costas' son/grandson/third cousin which would explain everything.

You don't know what was happening to someone's sweater in that pile!

@Hopkins92, this gave me a good chuckle, I must admit. LOL

[PaulNewman]

Gonna leave this here with no comment other than to say where one gets one's news apparently does matter...

https://ephsports.williams.edu/news/2024/11/17/mens-soccer-spectacular-overtime-goal-tough-defense-see-williams-beat-messiah-1-0-and-move-on-to-the-round-of-16-of-the-ncaa-national-tournament.aspx

What about this is biased PN? Just read it through as a neutral fan who was in Williamstown for the game Sunday, and it seems pretty accurate to me. Obviously whoever the student reporter is painted everything in a positive light for the Ephs, but the Falcons definitely didn't dominate the game overall. They had more of the ball, but that's consistent in all of their games, and as we know, it certainly does not directly correlate to having the upper hand in a game.

The only thing I could imagine being biased is stating that two Williams players "combined defensively to dispossess" Messiah. But do we expect the write up to say it was a foul that the ref let go? Williams had the better chances in the game and was the more physically imposing team. Messiah definitely got unlucky with an offside call, but the ref missed a clear pen in the first half as well. Williams was exciting to watch and I can see them making another 2022-esque run this year. Helps that there are no other T-10 teams in their side of the bracket...

Everyone's a neutral now...and I'm kidding.

Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear enough.  I thought the recap actually was quite fair overall and paid respect to both teams and very openly stated that it was an extremely tight, hard-fought battle that could have gone either way.  So no problems there.  I also never said Messiah outplayed Williams.  Imo they didn't.  I thought Williams had a definite physical edge and also had far more offense and ball movement than they did 2 years ago at Messiah.  But I also thought, partly because of a physical deficit, played admirably and played like they know they are Messiah and will always push to meet their own bar of excellence.  That's why I said I was proud of how Messiah competed.  They didn't deserve to win, didn't deserve to lose...but definitely could have won.  I probably would have liked Williams in PKs but you never know...the pressure might have been more heavily on the home team.  And that's where the non-call comes in...kind of spoils what was a really great game by both teams.  As for the article, my only issue was the alternative reality narrative on the "dispossession" as you noted which the author could have just ignored, but then he or she didn't ignore the alleged missed PK call.  And I'm not sure how he or she got two players dispossessing, when, if there had been a dispossession it would have been #21.

This will all pass as there will be missed calls on Saturday...and I'll probably be crying about one or two of the them...or justifying them.

[PaulNewman]

I question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection.  Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.

I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.

The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.

Given that you said you thought it was a foul, and so many others did as well, I guess what is not clear to me now is what prompted you to refer the matter to the friend in the first place.  Not that that would be a problem, but did you have some doubt?  And I take from his second reply that indeed he believes it was a foul (since he then goes on to qualify in case there was his possible alternative explanation which I think we all know didn't transpire).

[SKUD]

Not to change the subject, but to change the subject, since I did this during last year's NCAA tournament Sweet 16 match between Occidental and Amherst, I thought I would do it again for Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and Middlebury.  For all the hardship a SCIAC team endures traveling across the country from Southern California to New England in November, there almost always are some familiar faces on the other bench when they arrive because so many SoCal boys go to New England and the Mid-Atlantic to play college soccer.  This year is no exception:

CMS Sophomore MF Christopher Kim and Middlebury Sophomore D Owen Davis were teammates on Albion SC San Diego B04/05 MLS Next

CMS Freshman MF Heiko Schultz and Middlebury Freshman D JT Federman were teammates on LA Surf B05/06 MLS Next

Also, Middlebury's senior defenders Casey Lund and Luke Madden played at Beach FC and so did CMS freshman defender Ian Rodriguez, although they obviously did not overlap.  Madden was back at Beach FC coaching at their camps this summer.

It's a big country and a global game, but a small community of top soccer players!

Kuiper you are like a wonderful piece of chocolate stuck in a sea of diarrhea.

[Freddyfud]

Kuiper you are like a wonderful piece of chocolate stuck in a sea of diarrhea.

And from this point forward I will stop looking forward to Halloween.  Thanks a lot SKUD.

[Mr_November]

Just perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.

Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.

Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.

[Rcjh2245]

Just perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.

Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.

Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.

And there's #40 Shae Wirt - Kansas kid - instrumental in goal vs. Tufts

[FanofNescac]

Not sure which player it was on Buff State, but the first kick taker in the shootout did a Panenka down the middle

[Convict charlie]

Just perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.

Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.

Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.

I had watched the conference championship game where they lost 3-1. It could've been 5-1 as cortland hit 4 posts and had the run of play all game. I also felt their third goal was a poor call.
In the buff state goal he made that out of nothing. It was 1 on 3. He cut from toward the sideline into the 3 players and put it in inside corner from about 20 yds out. Crafty player who plays with a lot of confidence. Just needs his one chance like he did against tufts.
Their center back is also a super player too. Super composed on the ball and walks up the field when he wants to.

[Mr_November]

Just perusing through the Buffalo State roster...they've got players from South Africa, Portugal, England, Wales, Italy...as for the rest of the players on their roster, if they aren't international they're from NY.

Stat leader, #10 Diego Rivera, is sitting pretty on 18 G, 8 A. He's had hat tricks against St. Aloysius and Oswego State.

Portuguese senior, #17 Manu Prieto, follows closely behind with 10 G, 17 A. Prieto had a hat trick vs Alfred and picked up a brace on 2 separate occasions. 4 assists vs Oswego State.

I had watched the conference championship game where they lost 3-1. It could've been 5-1 as cortland hit 4 posts and had the run of play all game. I also felt their third goal was a poor call.
In the buff state goal he made that out of nothing. It was 1 on 3. He cut from toward the sideline into the 3 players and put it in inside corner from about 20 yds out. Crafty player who plays with a lot of confidence. Just needs his one chance like he did against tufts.
Their center back is also a super player too. Super composed on the ball and walks up the field when he wants to.

The player who scored from 20 yards out - was this #10 Rivera or #17 Prieto? Or neither? Just curious.

[NEsoccerfan]

I question a "high level ref" who is looking at foot rotation and thinks white touches a ball that has zero deflection.  Either it's a different clip or your high level ref went to a NESCAC school and is looking for a reason to justify the call.

I'd defer to a current "high-level ref" who is grading refs based on video evidence such as this on a daily basis over a "former ref" such as you. And since you are alleging some sort of bias, he has zero affiliation with the NESCAC. Also, he knows that ref and does not speak highly of him on a personal or professional level, so no bias there either. As for me, I vehemently root against the NESCAC every chance I get.

The fact of the matter is that he is more qualified to speak on the play than any of us since we all have access to the same information yet he has the training and expertise. Now, for those who were at the game, they have more information and can more credibly make an assessment than he can. But they are also arguably the most biased.

Given that you said you thought it was a foul, and so many others did as well, I guess what is not clear to me now is what prompted you to refer the matter to the friend in the first place.

That's a rather silly question, so I'll answer it by asking you one as well. Have you ever in your 64 years felt confident about your layman's opinion on something, but still decided to sanity-check it with an expert?