NCAA TOURNAMENT 2024

[PaulNewman]

I appreciate the entertainment education, and while I can see the entertainment bonfire roaring, I thought I'd show my appreciation by tossing some kindling into the blaze....

Rate Final Four combatants from best to last in the following categories...

Best Academic Institution

Amherst... Midd and W&L is a tie for me in part because W&L already is "ranked" very, very high and would be higher if in the Northeast/New England, and very much on par with Midd and Bowdoin.  Conn is a distant 4th in this rarified air.

Best Coach/Coaching Staff

Burk, Serpone, Elias, Shabazz...with caveat that this one is tight but Burk has that Shapiro aura.

Best GK

W&L, Conn, Midd, Amherst...Mammoths have 3 GKs with at least 5 starts...current starter least of the three.

Best Striker

Amherst, W&L, Conn, Midd


Best CB/CB Combo

Amherst/Midd (tie); Conn/W&L tie

Best Playmaking Midfielder

Conn, Amherst/Midd (tie), W&L

Most Attractive Style of Play

W&L/Conn (tie), Midd, Amherst


Most Resilient Team

Conn/W&L/Amherst/Midd (four-way tie)


Best Past Decade

Amherst, Conn, W&L, Midd

Best Coaching Tree

Midd

Most Impressive (Toughest) Road to Final Four

W&L, Conn, Midd, Amherst

Best Partisan Poster

Enmorecat, Jknezek, Bucket, TimMunny???

Best Alumni/Support Base

Amherst, Midd, Conn, W&L

Best Town/City Where School Located

Amherst, W&L/Midd (tie), Conn

Best Home Pitch

Midd, W&L, Amherst/Conn (tie)...NONE would make round of 32 for fields.

Best Mascot/Nickname

Gotta say, pretty boring here...W&L, Conn, Midd, Amherst.

Most Feared Mascot (Generals, Mammoth, Camel, Panther)

Generals, Panthers, Mammoths, Camels

See answers above.  Other categories that come to mind are Best Supersub and Best Bench.  Noticed that Amherst at least in last game played the majority of starters 90 minutes with limited subs in both number used and minutes.

[Newenglander]

I know we covered from a competition perspective, but can we talk about what an absolutely boneheaded idea it was to host this tournament final in Las Vegas from a logistics point of view?  Everyone has to fly, and the hotels are nearly all sold out or in the $1000+ range for a single night.  It seems there is a 300k+ person convention/rodeo in town the same weekend (which is easily knowable) on top of Amazon, and others.  That's quite a commitment for families that want to see their kids play in the final four, not to mention the scores of young alums who otherwise would attend, but are being shut out by cost.

The NCAA also always had a travel rule that required the semi-final losers to vacate their hotels after their loss.  Are they enforcing that here, where everyone is required to fly?

Don't mind me, I'm just salty for having to spend my Christmas budget on red-eye flights and hotels.

It is boneheaded - and not the first time the topic has been raised, though I'm not sure if it was this thread or elsewhere.

The NCAA solicits bids for all its championships.  It may be that the Las Vegas bid was the only one it received for this year's championships, which is unlikely but possible.  Much more likely was that they offered some kind of financial incentives the other bidders couldn't match, because the NCAA has to pay to put the championship teams/staffs up and fly them all there.  About the only advantage to having it in Vegas is they won't have to deal with snow.

add the fact that it's a Thursday semi adds to the logistical pain......

[SimpleCoach]

I think it will be an Amherst Conn final.  Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.

SC.

Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.

The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.

Shakingly bad indeed.  What was I thinking.

SC.

2024 - 17-1-4
Lost to Conn in the NESCAC Final 3-1

2023 - 15-2-4
Lost to Tufts 2-1 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Amherst 1-0 in the NCAA Quarterfinals... and I was rooting for Middlebury in his one.

2022 - 10-5-3
Lost to Amherst in OT 1-0 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Rowan 3-2 in the NCAA First Round

2021 - 13-5-1
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Semi's 1-0
Lost to Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 1-0

2020 - No Season

2019 - 13-5-3
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Finals 2-1
Lost to RPI in the NCAA 2nd Round in PKs.

[Bucket]

I think it will be an Amherst Conn final.  Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.

SC.

Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.

The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.

Shakingly bad indeed.  What was I thinking.

SC.

2024 - 17-1-4
Lost to Conn in the NESCAC Final 3-1

2023 - 15-2-4
Lost to Tufts 2-1 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Amherst 1-0 in the NCAA Quarterfinals... and I was rooting for Middlebury in his one.

2022 - 10-5-3
Lost to Amherst in OT 1-0 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Rowan 3-2 in the NCAA First Round

2021 - 13-5-1
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Semi's 1-0
Lost to Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 1-0

2020 - No Season

2019 - 13-5-3
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Finals 2-1
Lost to RPI in the NCAA 2nd Round in PKs.

Are we talking history or this year's team?

LOL.

Yes, yes, you always say you'll never trust Middlebury until they do . . . what?

Make several elite 8s? Oh wait, they've done that. Still can't trust.

Earlier this year it was handedly beat a non-conference team. Oh, they did that, still can't trust.

Made a Final Four this year. Still can't trust. Let's see them get to a Finals. Then you still won't trust.

My hot take? Midd wins a national title and SC says, "Well, let's see if they can win back-to-back."

PN was right in his responses to me: can't argue with anything he said, and I was overly defensive and shouldn't have validated this bizarre obsession with Middlebury's "inadequacies."

I'll take Midd's year (no matter what happens this week), as well as its history—recent or decades' long—considering they are in a tier of success that has eluded about 97 percent of the programs in all of Division III soccer.

[northman]

With regard to academic rigor, I'll cite the US News rankings, which of course always spark a controversy.  Amherst is ranked near the top, Midd and W&L are right next to each other, and Conn is another level behind.  That said, each school has its own approach toward the parameters for recruiting "student athletes".

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges?_sort=rank&_sortDirection=asc

[PaulNewman]

Very clever, northman.  You often remind me of myself...something I want to get into the narrative flow but not quite sure how to go about it...so I sneak it in under the rug but noticeable enough that most folks will take a peak.  I've tried to do this less over the years, but I still do it.

To be fair, even if we take US News seriously, if you go through the last decade, Midd and Bowdoin have been side by side and I'm almost certain there have been years when Midd was one or two spots above Bowdoin and other years tied or a spot or two behind.  Outside of the top three, there has been quite a bit of movement year to year.  For example, this is the first year I think Davidson was ranked higher than Midd.  Last year Davidson got knocked for whatever reason and now is about where they've usually fallen with some years in the single digits.  W&L used to be a few spots behind Davidson, then basically even, and probably for at least a couple of years landed higher than Davidson.  I wouldn't put one above the other personally.  Just as I wouldn't put Bowdoin or Midd ahead of each other.  I would venture to guess that most folks who are into these kinds of elitism comparisons put Williams and Amherst together, and then Midd and Bowdoin together.  And I think most would put Hamilton, Colby, and Bates together.  Wesleyan and Tufts are harder to place because they are the most different than the others in the conference, and so most would default those two marginally between Midd/Bow and Hamilton/Colby/Bates.

Protip although hopefully most know this....an artificially produced "ranking" does not mean that a kid will get a better education at the higher ranked school or even that the better ranked school is a better school.  I went to Davidson which as long as I've followed this stuff has maintained a ranking anywhere from 15-25 spots above Kenyon.  My son could have attended Davidson.  He went to Kenyon...and I'm glad he did.  Indeed, Kenyon would have been a much better school for me.

[jknezek]

W&L plunged about 10 spots a year or two ago. Something about students eligible for Pell Grants and some other changes to criteria.

As far as I know, it's the least favorable of the major rankings to W&L. Not that it matters really to any part of this discussion.

All 4 are amazingly strong schools. I suspect I would not get into W&L anymore based on their current criteria, but I'm glad I was able to spend my 4 years in Lexington and I've never regretted it.

One thing I'll say about D3 soccer is that it is very much driven by high academic schools. Look at the round of 32, look at the private schools. Lynchburg is probably the lowest ranked school of the private bunch, the vast majority being private.

It's not like this in all D3 sports, football is one example, but it is definitely an advantage in soccer to recruit based on academics.

[EnmoreCat]

I can't believe University of Hawaii didn't tender for the Final Four, that would have made life much easier...I'm expecting a slightly different cultural experience to the one in Salem/Roanoke last year.

[College Soccer Observer]

I think it will be an Amherst Conn final.  Don't think W&L has it to beat Conn, and not sure if Middlebury can really step into this game and rise to the occasion.

SC.

Middlebury can very well lose this match, but it won't be because they "can't step into this game and rise to the occasion." What a terrible take.

The Panthers have lost one game all year, in the NESCAC title game. And this is the Final Four. The last four teams standing, every one of which has had to "step into a game and rise to the occasion" to get here. To question any one of these teams on that "metric" is head-shakingly bad.

Shakingly bad indeed.  What was I thinking.

SC.

2024 - 17-1-4
Lost to Conn in the NESCAC Final 3-1

2023 - 15-2-4
Lost to Tufts 2-1 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Amherst 1-0 in the NCAA Quarterfinals... and I was rooting for Middlebury in his one.

2022 - 10-5-3
Lost to Amherst in OT 1-0 in the NESCAC Semis
Lost to Rowan 3-2 in the NCAA First Round

2021 - 13-5-1
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Semi's 1-0
Lost to Amherst in the NCAA Semi's 1-0

2020 - No Season

2019 - 13-5-3
Lost to Tufts in the NESCAC Finals 2-1
Lost to RPI in the NCAA 2nd Round in PKs.

Are we talking history or this year's team?

LOL.

Yes, yes, you always say you'll never trust Middlebury until they do . . . what?

Make several elite 8s? Oh wait, they've done that. Still can't trust.

Earlier this year it was handedly beat a non-conference team. Oh, they did that, still can't trust.

Made a Final Four this year. Still can't trust. Let's see them get to a Finals. Then you still won't trust.

My hot take? Midd wins a national title and SC says, "Well, let's see if they can win back-to-back."

PN was right in his responses to me: can't argue with anything he said, and I was overly defensive and shouldn't have validated this bizarre obsession with Middlebury's "inadequacies."

I'll take Midd's year (no matter what happens this week), as well as its history—recent or decades' long—considering they are in a tier of success that has eluded about 97 percent of the programs in all of Division III soccer.

@SimpleCoach:  There is a world of difference between Midd circa 2019 and now.  The 2019 team was very hard to score on, but they had a quite limited offense.  They went 9-3-8 (this in an era where they actually played overtime).  They beat Conn 2-1 in OT and lost to Tufts 2-1 in OT.  That team finished 6th in the NESCAC and only made it to the NCAA's by virtue of run to the NESCAC championship game, beating Conn on PKs and then shutting out Amherst at Amherst before losing to a late Tufts goal in the final.  Failing to advance past the second round on PKs at RPI is not exactly choking.  Midd's co-leading scorers that year had 4 goals apiece and the team only scored 28 all year while allowing 10.  In 2021, they scored 29 and allowed 9, with Jordan Saint-Louis leading the way with 8.  They lost 1-0 to Tufts in the NESCAC semi before beating Oneonta, then Franklin and Marshall at Franklin and Marshall, then John Carroll before dropping a 1-0 to Amherst.  2022 they definitely underachieved in the post season, as any one on that team would tell you.  2023--undefeated regular season, including defeating Tufts 3-0.  They lost by a goal to Tufts in the NESCAC semis, and then beat Hopkins in 2nd round and Cortland State in 3rd round at Amherst before losing again to the hosts.  2024--another undefeated regular season and lost in NESCAC final 3-1 in a game that could easily have gone either way. 

Relative to the other NESCAC powers of the last decade, I can understand why you might think Midd has not held up its end of the bargain.  It should be noted, however, that Tufts and Amherset have hosted on a regular basis, and 2023 was the first time Midd got to host.  This was partially due to the dominance of the field hockey squad, who just won their 7th consecutive National Championship, and often took priority over men's soccer.  Tufts hosted the first weekend in 2024, two weekends in 2023, two weekends in 2021, and one in 2019.  Amherst hosted a weekend in 2024, the 2nd weekend in 2023, two weekends in 2022, the 2nd weekend in 2021, and the 2nd weekend in 2019.  So Tufts and Amherst have hosted 6 weekends over that span, while Midd has hosted 3 (all in the last two years).  The last two NCAA quarterfinals between Amherst and Midd were at Amherst. 

[Another Mom]

Back to the decision to hold the Final Four in Las Vegas . . .

It is costing parents $5,000 to go support their team, between lodging and airfare. There are parents and other supporters that just cannot afford that! I know of people that wanted to come but now cannot because of the cost.

I cannot believe the NCAA intentionally wanted to harm non-wealthy families and supporters, but that's exactly what they've done. Is there any official channel through which I can give this feedback?

[Ron Boerger]

Back to the decision to hold the Final Four in Las Vegas . . .

It is costing parents $5,000 to go support their team, between lodging and airfare. There are parents and other supporters that just cannot afford that! I know of people that wanted to come but now cannot because of the cost.

I cannot believe the NCAA intentionally wanted to harm non-wealthy families and supporters, but that's exactly what they've done. Is there any official channel through which I can give this feedback?

Here is the NCAA's feedback site:  https://www.ncaa.com/contact-us

Good luck.

[PaulNewman]

Back to the decision to hold the Final Four in Las Vegas . . .

It is costing parents $5,000 to go support their team, between lodging and airfare. There are parents and other supporters that just cannot afford that! I know of people that wanted to come but now cannot because of the cost.

I cannot believe the NCAA intentionally wanted to harm non-wealthy families and supporters, but that's exactly what they've done. Is there any official channel through which I can give this feedback?

Here is the NCAA's feedback site:  https://www.ncaa.com/contact-us

Good luck.

You Texas (and Trinity) folks must share a hearty laugh (or cry) -- along with your brethren from CA, CO, and the Pac NW -- when you see us East Coasters up in arms about travel and travel costs.  I mean, thank God Trinity, CMS, Pac Luth, Colorado Coll, etc families all have money pouring out of their ears...and in the unlikely event of harm caused at least you're comforted knowing the harm was unintentional.

[PaulNewman]

On Midd (and yeah, Freddy, no more than a few more posts I promise), much ado about nothing.  Nobody said Midd ever choked.  I think all but the "If you don't have a title in your program history you can never be one of us" folks, even if they're clinging to something from 30 years ago, recognize that a program with multiple Sweet 16s and Elite 8s over the past six to eight years is one of the most elite D3 soccer programs.  And yes, I've heard once or twice about 2007.

The truth of the matter is that among these four remaining outstanding programs, Midd is the only one that had not made a Final Four during a very healthy period for the program, and now they are indeed facing their arch-nemesis.  I'm sure most of us are rooting for Midd in that one at a minimum, so I really don't think there is any ill will being directed at Midd. 

These comparisons are impossible, but Midd has been among the top 2-3 teams all season.  Incredibly impressive year. A strong case can be made for Mary Wash still being the best team of 2024...and for a while there Tufts could legitimately argue about being #1, #2, or #3...and of course Amherst is always lurking outside the shower curtain, BUT...Midd has hardly spent a single day of 2024 being viewed as anything lower than #3 or #4 in the entire country, and I would guess that most here would rate Midd as the second-best squad.  I personally would vote for Midd as the #2 team of the 2024 season.  Lofty assessments and expectations add a good dose of pressure.  Raising the issue of Midd needing a bit more of a "break through" moment compared to the other three all-star programs just doesn't resonate as even mildly unfair.  We'd be saying the exact same thing about Hopkins, Kenyon, Cortland, F&M, Trinity.  Let's look at it from one other perspective.  Out of Tufts, Amherst, Conn, Williams, and Midd, which one of those five hasn't made a national final in the past decade?

[Ejay]

Just FYI, here are the host cities for the next 3 Championships.

2025   Salem, VA            
2026   Columbus, OH            
2027   Pittsburgh, PA

[jknezek]

Just FYI, here are the host cities for the next 3 Championships.

2025   Salem, VA            
2026   Columbus, OH            
2027   Pittsburgh, PA

I mean there really isn't a great solution to this. I bemoan Las Vegas because it's an area with 0 D3 support and history. That's the bigger rub to me. But I sure hope it's warm, because the next 3 could be awfully cold. And that's not great either.

Sadly the best areas are not great D3 bastions. Southern Cal is better than FL from my point of view. But it will cost to host there because everything is expensive. Florida is useless to D3, always has been. Though at least it's recruitable, unlike Vegas.

Salem, Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Chattanooga, Atlanta, the edge of D3 and no weather guarantees. Same with Texas.

It's kind of a bummer. But yeah, of everything mentioned, I like Vegas least. It doesn't even have cheap going for it as a destination, and that should have been the minimum it had.

I do get Salem is a pain to get to if you need to fly. Columbus won't be too much better. Pittsburgh will be best of those. But weather odds are pretty much the reverse order.