NCAA TOURNAMENT 2024

[Mr_November]

Lots of intriguing discussion here. Bottom line question seems to be: What level of achievement in a season is garnered as a success and can leave one feeling fulfilled when they look back on their career?

I agree with PN about conference titles, unless you are a program that isn't expected to win the conference and you can then hang your hat on that achievement. For perennial national contenders, a conference title will feel nice, but you won't be recalling conference championships when speaking to friends and family about fond college memories.

I do believe in a lot of cases it will be a milking of those E8, S16, and even NCAA tournament appearances, depending on the history of the school. I think it feels nice on a personal level to recall a F4, E8 or S16 achievement when talking to outsiders who want to hear about your college experience, but inwardly there will always be some longing of having made it to that next step that you just couldn't quite achieve.

I'm sure players at schools like Tufts, Amherst and Messiah feel some level of disappointment with anything less than a F4 or National title, simply due to the reputation of previous dynasties.

[PaulNewman]

jknezek, I don't disagree with any of that. It all depends where you're sitting and when. Yes, those things are great, but just as some are saying getting to a F4 is not enough one can feel the same way after near-perennial Sweet 16 runs. I imagine there was a huge difference for you when W&L first got over the hump to reach their first F4 I think after beating Messiah in Elite 8. If they lose that game, I'm not sure you're savoring an Elite 8 exit, at least not in the moment.

[PaulNewman]

To no one in particular...

So you're saying I don't have to feel bad about myself?

I don't have to ingest repeated failures to reach the F4 or win a title as a personal narcissistic injury?

Same for fans/parents/alums of Midd, W&L, Hopkins, F&M, Cortland, Rowan, GAC, Babson, JCU, ONU, etc, etc?

[Mr_November]

To no one in particular...

So you're saying I don't have to feel bad about myself?

I don't have to ingest repeated failures to reach the F4 or win a title as a personal narcissistic injury?

Same for fans/parents/alums of Midd, W&L, Hopkins, F&M, Cortland, Rowan, GAC, Babson, JCU, ONU, etc, etc?

There are many quality clubs that compete for the Champions League that have never won it. Needless to say, they are still widely regarded as a world powerhouses.

Some clubs have title winning dynasties from past or present (Real Madrid, Bayern, Liverpool, AC Milan) and others are still hoping that one year will be the special year they clinch their first UCL title (Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, PSG).

*Please excuse this somewhat sorry analogy. D3 soccer is obviously different than the UCL

[jknezek]

jknezek, I don't disagree with any of that. It all depends where you're sitting and when. Yes, those things are great, but just as some are saying getting to a F4 is not enough one can feel the same way after near-perennial Sweet 16 runs. I imagine there was a huge difference for you when W&L first got over the hump to reach their first F4 I think after beating Messiah in Elite 8. If they lose that game, I'm not sure you're savoring an Elite 8 exit, at least not in the moment.

I'm not savoring last night's loss either, not in the moment. But as an alum, I'm pretty happy with national relevance. I think I have just enough of a jaundiced eye about soccer to know that you need some luck. It was with W&L this year with the PKs, it abandoned them last year on Pks. Let's be honest, what was the difference between a second round exit and a Final Four this year? A couple of mis-struck Pks by Johns Hopkins.

When you think about that being the sole difference in a season most would have considered ok and one that we all consider outstanding, I just have a hard time distinguishing between "worth of a season" or "celebration of a season" having much difference between a Sweet Sixteen and an Elite Eight, or an Elite Eight and a Final Four.

The margin is so small and so capricious that it's hard for me to say "heck yeah" to one and "well, bummer" to the other.

I think about W&L's 3 FF4 results, they took Conn to OT, then were eliminated by Amherst on PKs after storming back from a deficit, and then lost to Conn in regulation. You'd think that I'd consider the Amherst game the best, but I don't. I think the only time they were the "better team" on the field was last night. Conn was simply better a few years ago and W&L was on the back foot a lot of the game. Amherst blew the doors off W&L last year in the first half, and when they got the big lead took their foot off and lost concentration. Kudos to the Generals for fighting back and even having the better of it through OT, but that first half they were out-matched.

Last night? Well, they had control of the game except for about 20 or 25 minutes in the first half when it was even. Conn kept them from scoring and the goalie stood on his head a few times. It happens in soccer. But last night was their strongest Final Four game even though it had the "worst" result. The same is true with tournament results. Your "great" season isn't always dependent on how you finish, because soccer is cruel. So I just struggle when people are disappointed with consistent Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights. I get wanting to go further, I certainly wanted the Generals to have a National Title, or even another game. But I don't feel like they are "stuck." I just hope they will maintain national relevance and maybe get another shot at a title.

As for conference titles, unless you've won 5 or 6 in a row and plow through your regular season most years, I still think they mean a lot. Titles matter for most teams and players. You want to be a champion. If it's a one-team league, Messiah, well, it is what it is. But for the NESCAC schools, the ODAC, the Centennial and many more conferences, it's still a big deal. Maybe less to alums than to the players, but the players want, and celebrate, those banners.

That's my take on it anyway.

[Another Mom]

Completely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.

[Another Mom]

And now my thoughts start to turn to the Final. Will Conn's gk be enough to deny Amherst the title? I am dubious.

[PaulNewman]

And now my thoughts start to turn to the Final. Will Conn's gk be enough to deny Amherst the title? I am dubious.

I suspect Conn will have a better "field game" against Amherst than they did last night. Jaran being available and effective would be significant. It may come down to size...and the Kitten...but I would be extremely hesitant to bet against Conn.

[Mr_November]

As for conference titles, unless you've won 5 or 6 in a row and plow through your regular season most years, I still think they mean a lot. Titles matter for most teams and players. You want to be a champion. If it's a one-team league, Messiah, well, it is what it is. But for the NESCAC schools, the ODAC, the Centennial and many more conferences, it's still a big deal. Maybe less to alums than to the players, but the players want, and celebrate, those banners.

That's my take on it anyway.

That's fair, and actually a great point.

[Saint of Old]

To no one in particular...

So you're saying I don't have to feel bad about myself?

I don't have to ingest repeated failures to reach the F4 or win a title as a personal narcissistic injury?

Same for fans/parents/alums of Midd, W&L, Hopkins, F&M, Cortland, Rowan, GAC, Babson, JCU, ONU, etc, etc?

There are many quality clubs that compete for the Champions League that have never won it. Needless to say, they are still widely regarded as a world powerhouses.

Some clubs have title winning dynasties from past or present (Real Madrid, Bayern, Liverpool, AC Milan) and others are still hoping that one year will be the special year they clinch their first UCL title (Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, PSG).

*Please excuse this somewhat sorry analogy. D3 soccer is obviously different than the UCL

No, but football is football and the analogy applies.
It is like Jose Mourinho said. Football Tradition.
"Whatever man has done Man can do" - Marcus Garvey.
The reason that Liverpool or Tufts players can put on a jersey and know they are competing for the entire thing is because of football tradition.
The blood sweat and tears don't wash out of the jerseys... they stay there and give the future players a quality you cannot quantify.
What the Conn boys did a few years ago is giving CC confidence going into the season and the game.
There are many great programs that have not won yet. Oneonta/U of R Ithaca to name a few from my neck of the woods. They are great programs but I guarantee that once they win that first chip the future players will use it as a confidence boost going forward... Just like the Ajax/Man U/Chelsea boys.

[Hopkins92]

Ditto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.

You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.

To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.

Completely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.

[PaulNewman]

jknezek, to borrow your "best decade" argument, I think it depends where you are at. If you've never made tournament then make the tournament. If never to a Sweet 16 then a Sweet 16 is a major milestone and so on.

My son's class was mediocre their first two years...junior year made tourney, upset ONU and Wheaton back to back and then epic (loss) Sweet 16 game at Messiah. Senior year ranked #2 most of season and a big favorite but lose in Sweet 16 on home field to nemesis OWU (OWU's last F4 season). Kenyon has made tournament every year since with more Sweet 16s, a couple of Elite 8s, and multiple PK losses.  Very similar to where Midd was but with an overall stronger decade so in some ways waiting even longer to break through. The Elite 8 in most college sports is monumental, precisely because the margins are so tight and sometimes the "best" team doesn't win, but the difference between editing at that juncture and winning a trip to the F4 imo is massive (and overly massive).

[eaglesoccerdad]

Ditto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.

You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.

To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.

Completely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.

Anytime you win a trophy and can hang a banner it is a big deal no matter what level you are talking about

[Kuiper]

Ditto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.

You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.

To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.

Completely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.

I think most of the discussion on this topic is really about the psychological proposition that happiness is all relative or relative to expectations, which in the context of a team or program might be relative to what you and your cohort have done and what your school's teams have done in past years.  If Cal Tech Coach Duncan Gillis had written on the whiteboard the first practice that first season that the goal was a national championship or even a conference championship (or even making the conference tournament), it might have been so unfathomable that it would have failed to motivate the players.  I'm sure he set goals that would not have satisfied most teams.  For many, many teams, the season is absolutely a success if the team just makes the conference tournament or beats its biggest rival.  The burden for a successful program is the goals get bigger and the chances that you will reach them get smaller.  It is far more likely that every season the coach will have to console the team and convince them that they had a great season even though they failed to achieve their goals.

Honestly, every coach has to be jealous of Wisconsin-Superior. This is the most successful season ever for them and they improved from last season in a very measurable way. They beat defending national champion St. Olaf and qualified for the Sweet Sixteen for the first time in program history.  Last season, they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to St Olaf by a 7-1 score.  That is a massive turnaround.  They might have a few regrets if Amherst wins, knowing that they scored two goals on them and took them to the last minute or two of double OT before losing, but the glow of getting farther than you have before and improving over last season is a far different feeling than the relief of doing what you were expected to do.

[eaglesoccerdad]

Ditto, especially the part about conference titles. Most teams post their goals on a white board or team notebook or whatever and winning the conference title is absolutely a huge deal to them.

You can see it the celebrations after they win. They go nuts.

To some of us old heads who have seen those banners hung a number of times, we might be less impacted. That's just a natural reaction. But there are folks in the Centennial who see this post as fairly annoying. Not my intent, but I would understand someone taking issue with the perceived arrogance.

Completely agree with everything you wrote @jknezek.

I think most of the discussion on this topic is really about the psychological proposition that happiness is all relative or relative to expectations, which in the context of a team or program might be relative to what you and your cohort have done and what your school's teams have done in past years.  If Cal Tech Coach Duncan Gillis had written on the whiteboard the first practice that first season that the goal was a national championship or even a conference championship (or even making the conference tournament), it might have been so unfathomable that it would have failed to motivate the players.  I'm sure he set goals that would not have satisfied most teams.  For many, many teams, the season is absolutely a success if the team just makes the conference tournament or beats its biggest rival.  The burden for a successful program is the goals get bigger and the chances that you will reach them get smaller.  It is far more likely that every season the coach will have to console the team and convince them that they had a great season even though they failed to achieve their goals.

Honestly, every coach has to be jealous of Wisconsin-Superior. This is the most successful season ever for them and they improved from last season in a very measurable way. They beat defending national champion St. Olaf and qualified for the Sweet Sixteen for the first time in program history.  Last season, they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament to St Olaf by a 7-1 score.  That is a massive turnaround.  They might have a few regrets if Amherst wins, knowing that they scored two goals on them and took them to the last minute or two of double OT before losing, but the glow of getting farther than you have before and improving over last season is a far different feeling than the relief of doing what you were expected to do.

agree 100% that it is all about expectations. for my UMW example the guys got to a final four two years ago and followed that back up with what they would say are disappointing S16 appearances since the Natty was their realistic goal. Now if you had reversed the order and this year was their F4 shot then i am sure they would felt less disappointment