MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gregory Sager]

To give all players and teams in the league the opportunity to finish strong this week, I will withold further comment on player capabilities until after the season

It does my heart good to see a superbeing only use his powers for good rather than evil. May the edge of your cape never fray, papahoops.

[Buddo]

Holland was getting his Shuffle on to the tune of 32 points. He hit his first 10 shots from the floor and finished 12-15. Tough night to be little Alfie...

I still maintain Holland is at least as good as Nicolai, if not better.

That's a tough decision, but I have to say Holland is better, or at least more valuable. He makes a huge impact with less resources than Nicolai and UST. Holland has to have the smoothest jump shot in the league... don't get me wrong, I love Nicolai's game and he is very good, but Holland is just too smooth.

[AO]

Last one, and then I'm finished with this (I promise, MIACers!):

Lord love a duck, AO, read the posts correctly, willya? I never said that "Joldersma shouldn't try and go pro." I said that Joldersma was never going to play in the NBA. See that ever-so-slight difference there?   Sheesh.

So you thought Joldersma would find a steady job playing basketball overseas?  Let's just say you're leaning towards advocating these types of players stay home as the odds are very small they'll make millions playing basketball.  I'm leaning towards letting the individual make their own decision and support them whatever they choose.

I said nothing about Joldersma's chances of playing overseas during that MIAC room discussion back in '99. He had already signed with a team in Nationale I (France's C league) when the conversation took place. The contention of the MIACers who got so upset with me was that Joldersma's French contract was going to be his springboard to an eventual NBA career.

Look, you seem to think that I have some sort of a Svengali-like hold on Ray Brown. Let me say it again, since you obviously missed it the first time: I don't know Ray Brown. I doubt that I've even met anyone in person who knows Ray Brown. He will make his own decision. He will make it without me. Fear not, for I have reconciled myself to the fact that I lack omnipotence.

As for your comment, "Let's say that you're leaning towards advocating these types of players stay home as the odds are very small they'll make millions playing basketball," let's not say that, OK? Fact one: Joldersma had his degree, and in this hypothetical instance Ray Brown won't. Fact two: I had and have no knowledge of Joldersma's personal life (nor did I or do I want any), but, given that he was a Bethel student, I think it's a reasonable guess that he hadn't already fathered two children back when he went off to the land of wine and croissants to play ball eleven years ago. Ray Brown does have two children. Their situations are as unalike as can be.

I'm not deciding anything for Ray Brown. He doesn't know me from Adam, and even if he did he's not going to cede control over his life to me. Here's what I know, though, and I'll spell it out crystal-clear for you so that we can end this discussion once and for all: If his decision is to leave school without a degree, leave his children behind, and move to a foreign country where he may not make much money, then based upon those three hypotheticals without knowing any of any possible extenuating circumstances, his judgment is open to question.
//

You obviously aren't the one deciding.  What you are doing, as you stated, is questioning his judgment.  You are doing this before knowing all the facts of what he might be offered or what his progress towards a degree might be.  Leaving his children behind would obviously be difficult, and I find it ridiculous that you would question his judgment if he decides that he could best support them by temporarily moving somewhere where his talent is more highly valued.

I have stated numerous times in this discussion that I do not know all of the relevant facts, and that I am commenting only upon what is already common knowledge. To your credit, AO, you usually follow the content of a thread much better than you're following this one. As to what you do or don't find ridiculous, I honestly could not care less. Based upon the evidence at hand, there is every reason to question the soundness of his judgment if he leaves school early and goes overseas to play for peanuts.

You're joking, right? You can't be the only person in America who hasn't followed the endless parade of abysmal graduation rates, cheating, payoffs, recruiting violations, etc., that has poured across the news over the past twenty years. Clem Haskins ring a bell with you? Dave Bliss? Kelvin Sampson? Bob Huggins? Yeah, it's all up to the individual player in terms of the educational process getting hurt, isn't it?

The incidents of cheating and payoffs has not hurt the educational process as a whole.  They've hurt the individuals who cheat and the programs who have tried to cover it up.   To claim that these incidents means that division 1 has messed with the education process is to ignore the vast majority of kids and programs who don't cheat and don't try to cover it up if they find that the kids did cheat.

I disagree with you, and, more to the point, the vast majority of D1 university presidents disagree with you. The fact of the matter is that sports teams are the most visible manifestations of a D1 institution's public profile, and when the good name of the school gets dragged through the mud because of sports-related indiscretions the institution suffers. That's why university presidents have become much more proactive in recent years in terms of which institutional officer or officers interact(s) with (and, in many cases, administer via committee) the NCAA. It used to be an organization made up of, and addressing the needs of, coaches and athletic directors. Now it's much more of a president-driven organization, and the misbehavior of D1 sports teams is a direct cause of that. Google the name "Myles Brand" and do some reading. Here's something to get you started.

The primary role of an institution of higher learning is to graduate properly educated and prepared students. The role of a D3 college basketball program is to win games without getting in the way of the primary role

Again, no one at Hamline or any program is advocating kids cheat or (for the vast majority of kids) leave school early.   The reality is that a small amount of players might be able to make more money if they leave school early, than if they stayed an additional year.

Short-term, perhaps. But overseas basketball is not a long-term career option, unless you're the rare fish who plays overseas for many years and earns either permanent residency or citizenship in your host country and goes into coaching there. Long-term, there is almost always no substitute for getting a bachelor degree. And, again, this is assuming that there is any substantial money to be made if Brown goes overseas next season, which is highly questionable.

Chasing dreams is all well and good, and I would never want to be someone who stood in the way of someone else's dreams

So..., get out of the way  ----that of course goes for me too.

I was never in his way.

I'll make this simple for you and everyone.  YOU ARE WRONG TO QUESTION RAY'S JUDGMENT IN THIS POTENTIAL SITUATION!   You are getting in the way by doing it in a public forum, and you should hold true to your promise to stop.  I am making a bigger deal out of this than needs to be done as no one respects your opinion, but it just rubbed me the wrong way.

You make a good point about university presidents being worried about their reputation.  However, this is in contrast to your previous statement that D-1 sports have hurt the educational process itself, not just the reputation.   They're worried about losing money, not that a football player who flunks out of school (due to the actions or inactions of the football program) is going to bring his class down with him. 
Myles Brand didn't change the athletic culture, he just started penalizing programs for the failures of individuals.  The individuals aren't being motivated by the punishments.  His politically-correct campaign against Indian nicknames was unwarranted, and he was wrong to fire Bob Knight.   Even though I disagreed with him, his motives were clearly well-intentioned, may he rest in peace.

[Pat Coleman]

You could have brought the line of discussion to an end much sooner by not making asinine mischaracterizations about posts on this message board that were written when you were in high school, AO.

[AO]

You could have brought the line of discussion to an end much sooner by not making asinine mischaracterizations about posts on this message board that were written when you were in high school, AO.

It seems like a pretty similar situation to me.  Comes onto a board, tells everyone what a kid won't be able to do and makes people angry. 

[Nites]

You could have brought the line of discussion to an end much sooner by not making asinine mischaracterizations about posts on this message board that were written when you were in high school, AO.

... playing, I might add, against his self-proclaimed nemesis, Brett Winkleman (of NDSU fame), who, coincidentally, has embarked upon an overseas playing career, first with an Italian team and currently with a Polish team.  According to one Fargo media outlet, salaries for first year players overseas range from $50-$75K per year.

http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/22691/group/home/   http://brettwinkelman.blogspot.com/

http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=ITA&PlayerID=91576

[AO]

You could have brought the line of discussion to an end much sooner by not making asinine mischaracterizations about posts on this message board that were written when you were in high school, AO.

... playing, I might add, against his self-proclaimed nemesis, Brett Winkleman (of NDSU fame), who, coincidentally, has embarked upon an overseas playing career first with an Italian team and currently with a Polish team.  According to the one Fargo media outlet, salaries for first year players overseas range from $50-$75K per year.

http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/22691/group/home/   http://brettwinkelman.blogspot.com/

http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=ITA&PlayerID=91576

That's awesome to see Brett doing well.  Apparently not everyone playing overseas is being paid in peanuts.....

[Pat Coleman]

It seems like a pretty similar situation to me.  Comes onto a board, tells everyone what a kid won't be able to do and makes people angry. 

If only you had managed to grasp the 10-year-old conversation and characterize it accurately the first time. But your making assumptions and jumping to conclusions extended the conversation needlessly.

[tommiegun]

RE: DIII Euroball hyjinx.  Why is this being discussed? As a sparse poster but someone genuinely interested in the intrigue of the MIAC, I find this endless debate stemming from AO to be, as the bard so famously wrote, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

I may be wrong, but aren't we about 1 day from some important games and about 3 days from some really important games?

[piperinsider]

Double post coming - I may get long WW.

SJU 65, HAM 62
* Initial thoughts - I lay blame on three people for this loss. And it's not the inconsistent referees. A. Brown  B. Hipp and C. Whitmore.

Let me explain.

A. Brown connected on his first shot to make it 5-0, but made only one more outside shot in the poorest basketball performance from a MVP candidate I have ever seen. Sure, he was a pathetic 2-for-11, 2-for-8 from outside and missed a key free throw in the final minute, but it was the other things that bothered me.

He cried all night about the non-calls. It got to be so bad on one possession he was going to be whistled for a foul no matter whether he made contact or not. He then walked to the bench and sat down even though Whitmore had no one at the table for him (Charlie Choiniere got two minutes of playing time because of it). He repeatedly looked at the bench after a missed shot like they were going to do something and he sat at the end of the bench while a unit of Rieg, Andersen, Voigt, Aguirre and Schmidt willed the Pipers back to even at 59 after they once trailed by 15. Almost every player was standing led by Carroll besides Ray.

Please accept my apologies, PI, as I doomed your squad last night by promoting Ray Brown as the leading MVP candidate earlier in the week:'(. I was hopeful that the papahoops curse had run its course with my previous victim that has been well documented on the board, but it is clear the curse still has plenty of staying power. I'm afraid it would be better for a player to be impacted by the famed Sports Illustrated cover jinx than to receive accolades from papahoops this year.  I also see my positive comments on Scott Theisen as a Carleton 6th man this week resulted in a 1-5, 3 point performance, so my apologies should go out to him as well, although Carleton didn't need much from him in an easy victory over MAC.

The one player who has shown himself to be immune to the curse is DP favorite Seth Jonker, who has continued outstanding consistent play after my endorsement of his "game". The ability of Jonker Kong to overcome the power of the paphoops curse is truly impressive

To give all players and teams in the league the opportunity to finish strong this week, I will withold further comment on player capabilities until after the season

It's ok PapaHoops. Maybe you could just say something about how amazing UST has been the past two seasons with their 39-1 MIAC record. Or how Joe Scott has really bounced back and his shot is looking great now?

[SUMMIT!!!!!]

Double post coming - I may get long WW.

SJU 65, HAM 62
* Initial thoughts - I lay blame on three people for this loss. And it's not the inconsistent referees. A. Brown  B. Hipp and C. Whitmore.

Let me explain.

A. Brown connected on his first shot to make it 5-0, but made only one more outside shot in the poorest basketball performance from a MVP candidate I have ever seen. Sure, he was a pathetic 2-for-11, 2-for-8 from outside and missed a key free throw in the final minute, but it was the other things that bothered me.

He cried all night about the non-calls. It got to be so bad on one possession he was going to be whistled for a foul no matter whether he made contact or not. He then walked to the bench and sat down even though Whitmore had no one at the table for him (Charlie Choiniere got two minutes of playing time because of it). He repeatedly looked at the bench after a missed shot like they were going to do something and he sat at the end of the bench while a unit of Rieg, Andersen, Voigt, Aguirre and Schmidt willed the Pipers back to even at 59 after they once trailed by 15. Almost every player was standing led by Carroll besides Ray.

Please accept my apologies, PI, as I doomed your squad last night by promoting Ray Brown as the leading MVP candidate earlier in the week:'(. I was hopeful that the papahoops curse had run its course with my previous victim that has been well documented on the board, but it is clear the curse still has plenty of staying power. I'm afraid it would be better for a player to be impacted by the famed Sports Illustrated cover jinx than to receive accolades from papahoops this year.  I also see my positive comments on Scott Theisen as a Carleton 6th man this week resulted in a 1-5, 3 point performance, so my apologies should go out to him as well, although Carleton didn't need much from him in an easy victory over MAC.

The one player who has shown himself to be immune to the curse is DP favorite Seth Jonker, who has continued outstanding consistent play after my endorsement of his "game". The ability of Jonker Kong to overcome the power of the paphoops curse is truly impressive

To give all players and teams in the league the opportunity to finish strong this week, I will withold further comment on player capabilities until after the season

It's ok PapaHoops. Maybe you could just say something about how amazing UST has been the past two seasons with their 39-1 MIAC record. Or how Joe Scott has really bounced back and his shot is looking great now?

Don't do it Poppa or Momma hoops could be a wealthy widow-lady (and I hear DP likes wealthy widow-ladies... he is not alone)   

PI-- its only 38-1 till they put your boys in 6th place tomorrow. Sixth place pretty much wipes out any MVP discussion, IMO

[huhoops]

Double post coming - I may get long WW.

SJU 65, HAM 62
* Initial thoughts - I lay blame on three people for this loss. And it's not the inconsistent referees. A. Brown  B. Hipp and C. Whitmore.

Let me explain.

A. Brown connected on his first shot to make it 5-0, but made only one more outside shot in the poorest basketball performance from a MVP candidate I have ever seen. Sure, he was a pathetic 2-for-11, 2-for-8 from outside and missed a key free throw in the final minute, but it was the other things that bothered me.

He cried all night about the non-calls. It got to be so bad on one possession he was going to be whistled for a foul no matter whether he made contact or not. He then walked to the bench and sat down even though Whitmore had no one at the table for him (Charlie Choiniere got two minutes of playing time because of it). He repeatedly looked at the bench after a missed shot like they were going to do something and he sat at the end of the bench while a unit of Rieg, Andersen, Voigt, Aguirre and Schmidt willed the Pipers back to even at 59 after they once trailed by 15. Almost every player was standing led by Carroll besides Ray.

Please accept my apologies, PI, as I doomed your squad last night by promoting Ray Brown as the leading MVP candidate earlier in the week:'(. I was hopeful that the papahoops curse had run its course with my previous victim that has been well documented on the board, but it is clear the curse still has plenty of staying power. I'm afraid it would be better for a player to be impacted by the famed Sports Illustrated cover jinx than to receive accolades from papahoops this year.  I also see my positive comments on Scott Theisen as a Carleton 6th man this week resulted in a 1-5, 3 point performance, so my apologies should go out to him as well, although Carleton didn't need much from him in an easy victory over MAC.

The one player who has shown himself to be immune to the curse is DP favorite Seth Jonker, who has continued outstanding consistent play after my endorsement of his "game". The ability of Jonker Kong to overcome the power of the paphoops curse is truly impressive

To give all players and teams in the league the opportunity to finish strong this week, I will withold further comment on player capabilities until after the season

It's ok PapaHoops. Maybe you could just say something about how amazing UST has been the past two seasons with their 39-1 MIAC record. Or how Joe Scott has really bounced back and his shot is looking great now?

Don't do it Poppa or Momma hoops could be a wealthy widow-lady (and I hear DP likes wealthy widow-ladies... he is not alone)   

PI-- its only 38-1 till they put your boys in 6th place tomorrow. Sixth place pretty much wipes out any MVP discussion, IMO

6th seems a little steep but it would actually work out better for HU as a game at AUG is a better match up than at CAR.

I wouldn't be too quick to count HU out tomorrow. They have been a pretty resilient bunch this year, not to mention their success at home. UST has an edge, but it's not overwhelming. A lot to play for in the Pipers' case.

Any way it shakes out, I anticipate that next week will be more of the same parity we have seen all season.

[wabbit]

The one player who has shown himself to be immune to the curse is DP favorite Seth Jonker, who has continued outstanding consistent play after my endorsement of his "game". The ability of Jonker Kong to overcome the power of the paphoops curse is truly impressive

While Jonkey Kong's (It is Jonkey with a "y". I know because I stole it from those clever Carleton students) ability to circumvent the curse is impressive, has anyone noticed what Sutherland has been doing? His points the last 8 games:

16
13
20
16
30
16
14
22


Last night against the Scots, he had 10 assists and two dunks. He has been guarding the best perimeter player (Brown, Nicoli, etc.) and he and Davis are developing a rapport. Davis fed him on the dunks. They pounded Mac and the Mac players started to get pretty chippy. They undercut Sutherland and fouled Davis hard on a steal and a breakaway for a layup; a flagrant was called. I suppose when the reality of another o'fer season is dawning you might get a little chippy.

Anyone...anyone...DP, Papahoops any other sane poster is welcome to comment...

[piperinsider]

Double post coming - I may get long WW.

SJU 65, HAM 62
* Initial thoughts - I lay blame on three people for this loss. And it's not the inconsistent referees. A. Brown  B. Hipp and C. Whitmore.

Let me explain.

A. Brown connected on his first shot to make it 5-0, but made only one more outside shot in the poorest basketball performance from a MVP candidate I have ever seen. Sure, he was a pathetic 2-for-11, 2-for-8 from outside and missed a key free throw in the final minute, but it was the other things that bothered me.

He cried all night about the non-calls. It got to be so bad on one possession he was going to be whistled for a foul no matter whether he made contact or not. He then walked to the bench and sat down even though Whitmore had no one at the table for him (Charlie Choiniere got two minutes of playing time because of it). He repeatedly looked at the bench after a missed shot like they were going to do something and he sat at the end of the bench while a unit of Rieg, Andersen, Voigt, Aguirre and Schmidt willed the Pipers back to even at 59 after they once trailed by 15. Almost every player was standing led by Carroll besides Ray.

Please accept my apologies, PI, as I doomed your squad last night by promoting Ray Brown as the leading MVP candidate earlier in the week:'(. I was hopeful that the papahoops curse had run its course with my previous victim that has been well documented on the board, but it is clear the curse still has plenty of staying power. I'm afraid it would be better for a player to be impacted by the famed Sports Illustrated cover jinx than to receive accolades from papahoops this year.  I also see my positive comments on Scott Theisen as a Carleton 6th man this week resulted in a 1-5, 3 point performance, so my apologies should go out to him as well, although Carleton didn't need much from him in an easy victory over MAC.

The one player who has shown himself to be immune to the curse is DP favorite Seth Jonker, who has continued outstanding consistent play after my endorsement of his "game". The ability of Jonker Kong to overcome the power of the paphoops curse is truly impressive

To give all players and teams in the league the opportunity to finish strong this week, I will withold further comment on player capabilities until after the season

It's ok PapaHoops. Maybe you could just say something about how amazing UST has been the past two seasons with their 39-1 MIAC record. Or how Joe Scott has really bounced back and his shot is looking great now?

Don't do it Poppa or Momma hoops could be a wealthy widow-lady (and I hear DP likes wealthy widow-ladies... he is not alone)   

PI-- its only 38-1 till they put your boys in 6th place tomorrow. Sixth place pretty much wipes out any MVP discussion, IMO

I understand the record, just hoping for a little Papa jinx. You really think SJU goes into St. Peter and pulls out a win? When talking resiliency, GAC is the definition. Pipers finish fifth IMO.

[hoopmaster]

That's a tough decision, but I have to say Holland is better, or at least more valuable. He makes a huge impact with less resources than Nicolai and UST. Holland has to have the smoothest jump shot in the league... don't get me wrong, I love Nicolai's game and he is very good, but Holland is just too smooth.
[/quote]

I haven't seen Holland play this year but I am guessing he is getting the opponents second best perimeter defender.  Nicolai probably started the year with the opponents second best defender but as he has continued to be the Tommies best offensive player this year he got the opponents best defender.  I think Holland is a great player but i wonder if he would be as productive against the other teams best defender.

As far as Ray liking Coach Whitmore because he doesn't get in his face.  I also heard the opposite about Coach Whitmore's style but  I don't know too many coaches who would get in the face of an impact player such as Ray.   There would be a different kind of conversation about Hamline if Ray weren't there.  I think Coach Whitmore knows how important Ray is to his program.  With that said there isn't a coach who treats all of his/her players the same.